I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. It is wrong. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. Thanks ever so much. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. With follow-up. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] Its not just the alcohol abuse. Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. Yes, it would be nice to if Lisa would clarify what she knows about the kind of counseling that R.C. It appears so, based on this article: https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU. but I thought most Christian people understood that Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God) and that a Person died on the Cross. No one can make him do that. No prison time. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? The street is a two-laner through Fifties-vintage tract homes, and I was eastbound somewhere between Brookhurst & Euclid when I noticed the headlights coming towards me looked WRONG. Its all about the name Sproul and his fathers personal influence over other ministers. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? How do you see it different from me? Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. Sigh. (If someone already said this, apologies. I cannot add to or take away from Gods Word. I had to research my problems on my own to figure out what was wrong with me, and to find solutions. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. I should add Someone (I don't know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink TO EXCESS. wrote: Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. Would your answer remain the same? Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. Membership Covenants I will be the first to admit that I have a definite bias. She was in a very fragile place. The exchange of viewpoints is very effective. Tullian Tchividjian and Fortress Press: Dont Legitimate Second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst? Nonsense. Good grief, this is so annoying, Velour. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? Those children need help as well. God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink.<<. R.C. Now I guess I would say seek professional help and hopefully you can work out a mode of recovery that works for you. You get police involved if he is driving under the influence. Many people also get leukemia as adults who did not live near toxic waste sites. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. When and if the program successfully completed, I would have fewer reservations with a pastor returning to the pulpit, as long as other behaviors are not present. So I agree with Barbara, but not just because RC Jr is an alcoholic but for much much more than that. Answer: not that much so dial it back. Weve already discussed this up the thread. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Even pre-internet, a person could lug out their printed Yellow Pages phone book and look up the names of psychologists and so on. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. Spinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr, the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, the church governing body was aware of this issue. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. It was never a put down, and the first time I heard it used there was by the recovering alcoholics. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. It wont. I personally think I was a piece of crap uncle but thats me. And have a happy upcoming wedding anniversary. They simply didnt give an opinion about it in that comment. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. is obviously angry and much of it is rightly so. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. He really didnt deserve it, & my Mum, who worked up to 3 jobs & permanent night duty as a Nurse to bring us 3 up without him, didnt deserve that life, though she never never complained. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Welcome to TWW! It is frightening for them and overwhelming that they could be kicked out of their church if their problem became known. This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. Youll say in one breath that the dude should be fired or held accountable, but then you get angry with people who say he should be held accountable or be fired (in public). [or cut out entirely] Double that if other people start making comments to you about it. Velour wrote: First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? Edit your search or learn more. Sproul Jr. can be exposed. Please stop. Prayer Requests Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. What will the families of alcoholics and drug abusers do? We dont know. An avid Steelers and Pirates fan, sports were a big part of his life. So whether he sobers up or not the focus needs to be on doing whatever is necessary to prevent him from scheming his way back into ministry where he will be given the opportunity of committing more spiritual abuse. I dont think many people in American culture know what to make of people who go to social functions and dont stand around with a drink. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. That is them saying that, not me. I have never shared this before but I just needed to. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. People need to wake up. That is an important element here. In all likelihood he became an alcoholic as a teenager. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. Loving accountability along the way always helps prevent expulsion because it can guard against backsliding. What you wrote, brought tears. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee) Thank you for telling your story. He allegedly also served children alcohol. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. Not everyone has a spiritual gift to deal with these issues. I was touched by Friends story earlier about how their church and clergy loved a woman alcoholic member who wasnt clean and sober, but was a vital, loving member of their community. But bum-hood is not gender specific. People from many churches came to our group . Im sorry to hear that, but I still do not share his/her, or your, interpretation of that. It would be nice if you acknowledge that. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). It is criminal. leads to much worse compulsive drinking. I would not doubt it all. And guess what Yeah. throw him out of the house. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Not many want to, or want me to, even if I made a vow to be there in good times and bad. Heartbreaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. Those cannot be used as an excuse. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Now youre just provoking more? I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. I lost all of my friends of 8 1/2 years and people were ordered to never speak to be againand none of it was true. Sounds like it would do you good. My friend's injuries were so severe that she was in the hospital at UNC for months and months. Im a parent, and not all of my children have always made me very proud of them. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; How does keeping an alcoholic in the church help that person, or, more specifically, rid them of the alcoholism? Velour wrote: Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. I dont think he should. He needs to be in in-patient treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else troubles him that the medical professionals figure out). I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. And that she suffered injuries, too. R.C. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. And yes, we must continue to pray. R.C. Thank you. Some of the members (not necessarily the elders) of that church were indeed empathetic and caring, and went out of their way to meet with those who had been put out of the church. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Jack wrote: Purge the evil person from among you.. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. If any are reading and know what Im talking about, please contact me. Velour wrote: Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. This is a disease, not a moral failure. Fuss. No one can make him do that. What a traumatic experience for a young teen. She received the same love that she would have been given if her disease had been something more socially acceptableand the church helped prevent her from being isolated. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. Theyve paved the path to hell for their Precious. The consequences of their enabling are far far worse than if theyd just let him have to face the consequences of his bad life choices on his own. One theme Im getting from your numerous replies, and in spite of your protests to the contrary, is that a persons alcoholism should out-weight all else, and excuse that person. Purge the evil person from among you.. Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. I am sorry to hear this. Velour wrote: but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. There is no cause and effect, no correlation at all, between RC Jrs family deaths and his heavy drinking. The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. Maybe thats how it is supposed to work? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html, Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. And its important to try. I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. RC Jr has routinely practiced excomminicating and shunning. It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? Thank-You Love! He died that Wednesday in the afternoon. You are correct, Craig. Sometimes it takes the strength of one brave soul to shine the spotlight on evil and help save victims. Decades later, he founded Reformation Bible College to give students a foundation in God's Word during those formative years. Sproul being terminated from his job for a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors. (BTW, I agree with her.). If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. 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